Apparently the USA isn't the only country where this sort of thing happens. A fortunate result, all things considered.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-18961136#TWEET176819

Phil Umphres

On Monday, July 23, 2012 12:42:13 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> Apparently the USA isn't the only country where this sort of thing happens. A fortunate result, all things considered.
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-18961136#TWEET176819
>
> Phil Umphres

....and they should have a nice log file - from the TV news clip it looks like his flight computer was still running in the wrecked glider.

Mike

On Monday, July 23, 2012 4:09:13 PM UTC-6, Mike the Strike wrote:
> On Monday, July 23, 2012 12:42:13 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> > Apparently the USA isn't the only country where this sort of thing happens. A fortunate result, all things considered.
> >
> > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-18961136#TWEET176819
> >
> > Phil Umphres
>
> ...and they should have a nice log file - from the TV news clip it looks like his flight computer was still running in the wrecked glider.
>
> Mike

complete video promised later, caution, queen's english being spoken

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNYXoKzbPl8

At 02:29 24 July 2012, Frank Whiteley wrote:
>
>complete video promised later, caution, queen's english being spoken
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNYXoKzbPl8
>
Reveals more about the state of our eductaion system, than the accident!

On Tuesday, July 24, 2012 5:39:26 AM UTC-6, Jim White wrote:
> At 02:29 24 July 2012, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> >
> >complete video promised later, caution, queen's english being spoken
> >
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNYXoKzbPl8
> >
> Reveals more about the state of our eductaion system, than the accident!

Some of the most sophisticated cursing I have heard. LOL, kids!

I'll be darned, it's G Dale. Glad you're okay.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-18971978

Classic: "Mr Dale said: "I'm really annoyed because I did a lot of
work on that aircraft, and seeing it hanging in the tree is deeply
irritating."

-Evan Ludeman / T8

On Tuesday, July 24, 2012 12:01:26 PM UTC-7, Evan Ludeman wrote:
> I'll be darned, it's G Dale. Glad you're okay.
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-18971978
>
> Classic: "Mr Dale said: "I'm really annoyed because I did a lot of
> work on that aircraft, and seeing it hanging in the tree is deeply
> irritating."
>
> -Evan Ludeman / T8

No mention of Flarms, so I assume none was used, although this obviously happened in a gaggle where Flarm may be less effective. So far this is the 3rd midair I am aware off this year, luckily with no fatalities.

Ramy

Interview: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-18971978
More: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-18958136

Damned shame about the gliders, but those can be replaced.

-Evan / T8

On Tuesday, July 24, 2012 12:14:55 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 24, 2012 12:01:26 PM UTC-7, Evan Ludeman wrote:
> > I'll be darned, it's G Dale. Glad you're okay.
> >
> > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-18971978
> >
> > Classic: "Mr Dale said: "I'm really annoyed because I did a lot of
> > work on that aircraft, and seeing it hanging in the tree is deeply
> > irritating."
> >
> > -Evan Ludeman / T8
>
> No mention of Flarms, so I assume none was used, although this obviously happened in a gaggle where Flarm may be less effective. So far this is the 3rd midair I am aware off this year, luckily with no fatalities.
>
> Ramy

There may be two ways to interpret you last comment.

I'd say Flarm may be quite effective (at saving lives) in busy gaggles--its an area where busy pilots can do with the assistance.

Darryl

And if I was religious I'd thank God G made it out OK.

Darryl

On Tuesday, July 24, 2012 9:03:21 AM UTC-6, Mike C wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 24, 2012 5:39:26 AM UTC-6, Jim White wrote:
> > At 02:29 24 July 2012, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> > >
> > >complete video promised later, caution, queen's english being spoken
> > >
> > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNYXoKzbPl8
> > >
> > Reveals more about the state of our eductaion system, than the accident!
>
> Some of the most sophisticated cursing I have heard. LOL, kids!

The young, cursing prats talking about the glider crash
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yT2Fscpaeow&list=UU2PocZ_c0yj49aiMXDiGghw&index=1&feature=plcp

On Jul 25, 11:14*am, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
> And if I was religious I'd thank God G made it out OK.
>
> Darryl

Having with at a "flarm mandatory" club for over 4 years, my view is
that flarm is of little use where there are a significant number of
gliders in a gaggle (ie contest/regatta situation) as the alarms are
set of very frequently, but there is not the time to identify whether
the cause is the glider you can see or someone else. All you can
really do is ignore the alarms and keep your head well and truly out
of the cockpit. From the video, the situation at Cambridge appears
show a large number of gliders, reasonably low on a blue day have
found a number of cores which are pretty close together. Flarm is
great out on track to make you aware of traffic in the area.

John

At 18:51 25 July 2012, Frank Whiteley wrote:
>On Tuesday, July 24, 2012 9:03:21 AM UTC-6, Mike C wrote:
>> On Tuesday, July 24, 2012 5:39:26 AM UTC-6, Jim White wrote:
>> > At 02:29 24 July 2012, Frank Whiteley wrote:
>> > >
>> > >complete video promised later, caution, queen's english
>being spoken
>> > >
>> > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNYXoKzbPl8
>> > >
>> > Reveals more about the state of our eductaion system, than the
>accident!
>>
>> Some of the most sophisticated cursing I have heard. LOL, kids!
>
>The young, cursing prats talking about the glider crash
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yT2Fscpaeow&list=UU2PocZ_c0yj49aiMXDiGghw&index=1&feature=plcp
>
I see they boast of speaking to the press and providing their video. I a
wonder if they thought to offer it to the AAIB?

Flarm themselves have made the same point since the
beginning. See their PP presentation from 2005:

http://www.flarm.com/files/basic_presentation_en.ppt


At 22:22 25 July 2012, John Trezise wrote:
>On Jul 25, 11:14=A0am, Darryl Ramm wrote:
>> And if I was religious I'd thank God G made it out OK.
>>
>> Darryl
>
>Having with at a "flarm mandatory" club for over 4 years,
my view is
>that flarm is of little use where there are a significant
number of
>gliders in a gaggle (ie contest/regatta situation) as the
alarms are
>set of very frequently, but there is not the time to
identify whether
>the cause is the glider you can see or someone else. All
you can
>really do is ignore the alarms and keep your head well
and truly out
>of the cockpit. From the video, the situation at Cambridge
appears
>show a large number of gliders, reasonably low on a blue
day have
>found a number of cores which are pretty close together.
Flarm is
>great out on track to make you aware of traffic in the
area.
>
>John
>

The new PowerFLARM has a redesigned RF circuit with higher transmit power and a more sensitive receiver.
In addition the RF circuit is duplicated, allowing (but not requiring) the use of two FLARM antennas.
First shipments were to the US (to finally get them going with collision avoidance technology), launch for the rest of the gliding world is in progress (slowly).

On Jul 26, 3:33*am, John Galloway > wrote:
> Flarm themselves have made the same point since the
> beginning. *See their PP presentation from 2005:
>
> http://www.flarm.com/files/basic_presentation_en.ppt
>
> At 22:22 25 July 2012, John Trezise wrote:
>
> >On Jul 25, 11:14=A0am, Darryl Ramm *wrote:
> >> And if I was religious I'd thank God G made it out OK.
>
> >> Darryl
>
> >Having with at a "flarm mandatory" club for over 4 years,
> my view is
> >that flarm is of little use where there are a significant
> number of
> >gliders in a gaggle (ie contest/regatta situation) as the
> alarms are
> >set of very frequently, but there is not the time to
> identify whether
> >the cause is the glider you can see or someone else.
>
> >John

Slide numbers that seem to relate to gaggling; 12, 17

I might be wrong but I don't see that the FLARM PPT mentions anything
if their device is good, bad or indifferent during gaggling.

Did I miss something?

- John

At 13:34 26 July 2012, JohnDeRosa wrote:
>On Jul 26, 3:33=A0am, John Galloway wrote:
>> Flarm themselves have made the same point since the
>> beginning. =A0See their PP presentation from 2005:
>>
>> http://www.flarm.com/files/basic_presentation_en.ppt
>>
>> At 22:22 25 July 2012, John Trezise wrote:
>>
>> >On Jul 25, 11:14=3DA0am, Darryl Ramm =A0wrote:
>> >> And if I was religious I'd thank God G made it out
OK.
>>
>> >> Darryl
>>
>> >Having with at a "flarm mandatory" club for over 4
years,
>> my view is
>> >that flarm is of little use where there are a significant
>> number of
>> >gliders in a gaggle (ie contest/regatta situation) as
the
>> alarms are
>> >set of very frequently, but there is not the time to
>> identify whether
>> >the cause is the glider you can see or someone else.
>>
>> >John
>
>Slide numbers that seem to relate to gaggling; 12, 17
>
>I might be wrong but I don't see that the FLARM PPT
mentions anything
>if their device is good, bad or indifferent during gaggling.
>
>Did I miss something?
>
>- John
>

The diagrams in Slide 12, "Situation in Gliding", indicate
the scenarios in which Flarm was predicted to give
improvement on See and Avoid and the one that it can't -
i.e. "identical circling".

John G.

On Thursday, July 26, 2012 8:32:41 AM UTC-7, John Galloway wrote:
> At 13:34 26 July 2012, JohnDeRosa wrote:
> >On Jul 26, 3:33=A0am, John Galloway wrote:
> >> Flarm themselves have made the same point since the
> >> beginning. =A0See their PP presentation from 2005:
> >>
> >> http://www.flarm.com/files/basic_presentation_en.ppt
> >>
> >> At 22:22 25 July 2012, John Trezise wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Jul 25, 11:14=3DA0am, Darryl Ramm =A0wrote:
> >> >> And if I was religious I'd thank God G made it out
> OK.
> >>
> >> >> Darryl
> >>
> >> >Having with at a "flarm mandatory" club for over 4
> years,
> >> my view is
> >> >that flarm is of little use where there are a significant
> >> number of
> >> >gliders in a gaggle (ie contest/regatta situation) as
> the
> >> alarms are
> >> >set of very frequently, but there is not the time to
> >> identify whether
> >> >the cause is the glider you can see or someone else.
> >>
> >> >John
> >
> >Slide numbers that seem to relate to gaggling; 12, 17
> >
> >I might be wrong but I don't see that the FLARM PPT
> mentions anything
> >if their device is good, bad or indifferent during gaggling.
> >
> >Did I miss something?
> >
> >- John
> >
>
> The diagrams in Slide 12, "Situation in Gliding", indicate
> the scenarios in which Flarm was predicted to give
> improvement on See and Avoid and the one that it can't -
> i.e. "identical circling".
>
> John G.

As I think "Flarm" (Urs?) is already trying to say in this thread. This may well change with use of the second flarm antenna in PowerFLARM -- if it is mounted to the rear/underside of the glider. We'll need to see how many owners do that with PowerFLARM and how it works out in practice.

My personal worst scare in a thermal was a clueless pilot entering the thermal in the opposite direction, coming straight at me while I was busy with a few other gliders above and below me, something I expect flarm would have totally alerted me to before I saw him. OTOH there are probably lots of times I was aware of other gliders thermalling close by in the same direction and never saw them.

We all need to remember that saying: perfection is the enemy of good. We don't need to be seeking perfection, but no argument that understanding practical limitations is important.

Darryl

At 19:49 26 July 2012, Darryl Ramm wrote:
>On Thursday, July 26, 2012 8:32:41 AM UTC-7, John
Galloway wrote:
>> At 13:34 26 July 2012, JohnDeRosa wrote:
>> >On Jul 26, 3:33=3DA0am, John Galloway wrote:
>> >> Flarm themselves have made the same point since
the
>> >> beginning. =3DA0See their PP presentation from
2005:
>> >>
>> >>
http://www.flarm.com/files/basic_presentation_en.ppt
>> >>
>> >> At 22:22 25 July 2012, John Trezise wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On Jul 25, 11:14=3D3DA0am, Darryl Ramm
=3DA0wrote:
>> >> >> And if I was religious I'd thank God G made it
out=
>=20
>> OK.
>> >>
>> >> >> Darryl
>> >>
>> >> >Having with at a "flarm mandatory" club for over
4=
>=20
>> years,
>> >> my view is
>> >> >that flarm is of little use where there are a
significant
>> >> number of
>> >> >gliders in a gaggle (ie contest/regatta situation)
as=20
>> the
>> >> alarms are
>> >> >set of very frequently, but there is not the time to
>> >> identify whether
>> >> >the cause is the glider you can see or someone
else.
>> >>
>> >> >John
>> >
>> >Slide numbers that seem to relate to gaggling; 12, 17
>> >
>> >I might be wrong but I don't see that the FLARM
PPT=20
>> mentions anything
>> >if their device is good, bad or indifferent during
gaggling.
>> >
>> >Did I miss something?
>> >
>> >- John
>> >
>>=20
>> The diagrams in Slide 12, "Situation in Gliding",
indicate=20
>> the scenarios in which Flarm was predicted to give=20
>> improvement on See and Avoid and the one that it
can't -=20
>> i.e. "identical circling".
>>=20
>> John G.
>
>As I think "Flarm" (Urs?) is already trying to say in this
thread. This
>may=
> well change with use of the second flarm antenna in
PowerFLARM -- if it
>is=
> mounted to the rear/underside of the glider. We'll need
to see how many
>ow=
>ners do that with PowerFLARM and how it works out in
practice.
>
>My personal worst scare in a thermal was a clueless pilot
entering the
>ther=
>mal in the opposite direction, coming straight at me while
I was busy with
>=
>a few other gliders above and below me, something I
expect flarm would
>have=
> totally alerted me to before I saw him. OTOH there are
probably lots of
>ti=
>mes I was aware of other gliders thermalling close by in
the same
>direction=
> and never saw them.
>
>We all need to remember that saying: perfection is the
enemy of good. We
>do=
>n't need to be seeking perfection, but no argument that
understanding
>pract=
>ical limitations is important.
>
>Darryl


To clarify, Darryl, I am a strong proponent of Flarm and co-
wrote the Scottish Gliding Union trial report on Flarm in
2007. It has long been known, for the exactly the
reasons that John Trezise pointed out, that when there
are several gliders in close proximity in thermal gaggle
then the pilot is not easily able to interpret which glider is
"flarming" him when a collison alert sounds. This isn't to
do with poor Flarm reception etc. Partly it is due to the
fact that the (unavoidable) Flarm altitude buffer is greater
than the height separation that pilots will happily accept in
a gaggle. Partly it is due to the fact that Flarm is
calculating a collision alert up to around half a circle ahead
- impossible for a pilot to do with several other gliders in a
close gaggle.

We did various trial collision scenarios for our report.
With only 2 trial gliders in a thermal sometimes an alert
would sound and I would wonder why as there was no
obvious imminent collision risk. If no corrective action was
taken it would become apparent that Flarm was in fact
right and the extended circular paths would intercept
(within the Flarm software criteria) eventually.

In the UK most pilots I speak to regard Flarm alerts in a
gaggle as a general reminder to keep the head swivelling
inside and outside the circle - especially looking for gliders
that may be joining the gaggle. A few pilots regard these
alerts as "false alarms", which is unfortunate.

John Galloway